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#48833 Thu 17 Jun 2010 03:58:PM
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Why The Ascension Process is so Painful & Difficult

This is so cool. Have a look, it has pictures!

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Alisa #48839 Fri 18 Jun 2010 12:46:PM
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You're right, that was cool. I'd like to discuss this in more detail some time. What are your thoughts on ascension? Very cool link, I explored the entire page, I really like that website, Thanks:0)

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Thanks for the reply, Jaime! I've had a chance to check out more of Denise's site and read the excerpt from one of her books (which was just awesome) and she has amazed me and moved me to tears. I like her stuff very much.

Anyway, Ascension and my thoughts...

The analogy just hit me of the movie Groundhog Day. A classic film that most of us have seen, and many of us have seen over, and over (ha a pun!).

Let me make the analogy from my point of view:

Phil is stuck on a day and he can't get out. We are stuck in our earth experience and can't get out.

He tries to figure out how to get out, but can't and has no choice but to wake up each morning to the same scenario that at times seems like a living hell. Ditto.

He's a lump of coal, a cranky, selfish, cynical character, but kinda cute and with lots of potential. Groundhog Day is determined to put him through the wringer and make him a diamond gem, but all he can see is himself in a proverbial Chinese Finger Trap. stretch

Once he realizes he's going to keep starting over no matter what he does, he overindulges in everything he ever wanted to do and try...until he tires of this dead-end road. Just as willingly pursuing materiality (money, sex, drugs, etc.) as an escape from living life is also a dead-end.

Next he tries to win the love of Rita, who attracts him due to her greater state of enlightenment and refinement. We are attracted to those who have achieved what we perceive as a state closer to self-actualization than our own. We have crushes and seek gurus, etc., in our attempt to realize our own power through them. And much like Rita, those we admire are only an example to show what can be attained, no real power can be had through attachment to them.

When he can't truly win Rita over (he cannot have her power through her), he becomes despondent and tries to end his life. But, he just keeps coming baaack. Ditto for us - reincarnation.

Finally, he decides to use the time to refine himself. He seems to lose the desire to escape the day. Likely it is because he changes his "focus" and as such, his feeling of entrapment is no longer dominant. He begins to make the most of that day. He can't go anywhere else, or do anything else, so he focuses all of his energy into what he can learn and accomplish within that day.

As a result of his positive efforts, and without a dominant desire to escape, in the end he wakes up on February 3, having "evolved" out of the loop, feeling very appreciative, but no longer desperate and entitled. He made his living-hell into a tool for self-refinement where he had begun to truly enjoy the rewards from the skills he had mastered. And I loved how when he "woke up" on Feb 3, one of the first things he said to Rita was, "Is there anything I can do for you today?" On his first day out he was truly transformed and no longer petty and desperate to cater to his animal needs. To escape was to evolve, and the enhancements he had created in himself were now a part of him that would served him forever. Just as I believe that getting through this earth school and evolving/ascending will gift us with certain skills forever, and we will not have to go through these same painful processes again. By the same token, there are no shortcuts, or checklists that can spirit us through to the finish line. It is a self-driven, self-defining process.

Anyway, that is how I relate Groundhog day to ascension. But are there mechanics involved, light bodies, stargates, aliens, blue star, planetary crashes, etc.? dunno Probably. But to me, that is not the point. Just like in Groundhog Day, Phil didn't consciously know how he got to Feb 3 exactly, not the metaphysical mechanics of it, or even how he got stuck in Feb 2 in the first place. It didn't really matter, all that mattered and all that he could control and know was his own belief, effort, and focus. No doubt his higherself knew everything all along, agreed to it, signed up for it, and guided him. Though Phil himself just lived each repeated day without a scrap of technical knowledge as to how he got there or how he could get out. It wasn't available and it would not have helped him if he had it (it might even have dangerously drew his focus away from self-refinement).

So for me, as far as striving to ascend, I'm trying to focus on positives (things that bring me joy), to open my mind as much as I can, to interact and share ideas, to wake up and pay attention so I can make good decisions, to pray for progress and to flow with divine will (and to love myself shy and to become more conscious). pray

Those are my thoughts on ascension...What are your thoughts, Jaime, Orb Queen, friends?

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I like the groundhog day analogy.

To my knowledge the concept of 'ascension' is quite complex - something not likely to be understood sufficiently from reading a page or two of text. Perhaps some basics or an idea may be grasped however.

I would suggest:
To not assume spiritual progress is a linear path.
To not assume what spiritual progress is.

To collect knowledge.
Decide what to do with collected knowledge.

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Love The analogy Alisa! I would have never thought like that about the movie Groundhog day In fact I haven't seen that movie in ages!!! It's been a while so I even forgot the premise of the story. But since you broke it down in such detail it automatically bought back the memories for it. You did such a good job of comparing the two together that all I can say is WOW!!! It definitely gave me a whole new outlook of the true meaning of the movie. I guess since I was only a kid when it came out I only looked at it as a goofy movie, but now I see how true to life it really is. So, I ask is art imitating life or is life imitating art?

I do agree with you on how we are stuck in the loop and we are all waiting for our own individual "Groundhog Day" but, I also agree with Al that the ascension is "quite complex." I also coincide that we do need to "collect Knowledge" and "decide what to do with it" This is what I believe to be the technical details of the Ascension. I know that this isn't your favorite thing to know or care about but, I believe that in order to ascend you have to know what ascend is! you have to know what a light body is and you have to understand the basis of what it is about. Hence the "collect knowledge part."

I know some folks don't even care or want to know about the terminology or data aspect of it. I understand that this might not be the important part to focus on and that our higher selves already know what to do. But, just as they are people who are not concern with that; there are also people who do want to know and I am one of them. I find it fascinating to learn the mechanics behind it and I also find it necessary to know or learn about it in order to fully awaken our higher selves. We all have our own unique ways to learn on our spiritual journey. What works for you won't work for others and what works for me might not work for you this is what I have learned so far ( well not you and me in particular, but you know what I mean;0)LOL!! you get the gist of what I'm saying well that's my two cents added to the jar amused


orb_queen #48927 Tue 22 Jun 2010 04:11:PM
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I'm pleased the Groundhog Day analogy went over well. cheerful It was one of those spur of the moment inspirations. However, I had watched Groundhog Day recently (and even cried again when I thought I would well be over being touched by the concepts and characters). But I think I watched it because it was destined to be the analogy I used. upsidedown

You are right OQ, it is about focus, and you are interested in the complexities of ascension. Perhaps this could be an area of speciality where you could research it, since you are driven, and then give me the summary?! I'd love that (give me the crash course, bb!).

Do you understand the complexities of ascension, AI? Or is it inconceivable with the human brain? brainfried

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Originally Posted by Alisa

Do you understand the complexities of ascension, AI? Or is it inconceivable with the human brain? brainfried


I would not claim to have a complete understanding of anything. I would say there is an overwhelming amount of misinformation and disinformation out there. The search is part of the process itself. Be discerning of those that claim to teach "the" way and for short cuts and simple solutions.

For the moment I will simply put forth a question you may ponder if you wish: To live in an environment of harmony, what qualities would be required?

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AI, what is misinformation and disinformation? Is it willful misguidance?

And would anyone who claims they have "the only" way be considered, in some way, misinforming?

To live in an environment of harmony, I think it would require for one thing that everybody keeps their will to themselves. That's what seems most poignant to me at the moment. Respect for each other's boundaries.

But is this what you mean when you say what qualities would be required?

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An individual may or may not be consciously aware they have or are providing false or distorted information. An hierarchical structure often will utilize unconscious dissemination with or without an associated programmed belief system that the information is true.

For your second question Alucia, could you please provide an answer to it.

"Their will to themself"... I encourage you to continue along this line of thought... thumbup

Last question: Yes and more!

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So disinformation is disseminated regardless of intention to deceive. I suppose I knew this. shy As well as the answer to the second question, which is Yes.

But why does disinformation exist? Why would a hierarchical structure disseminate disinformation? Do you mean by a hierarchical structure something that goes higher than a person's soul? Does the existence of disinformation have something to do with duality? Is it the friction that provides resistance for creating muscle through seeking non-disinformation? And what would you call non-disinformation, because I have a feeling if I call it truth, this will not be accurate...or is it?

As for more qualities for living in an environment of harmony...my idea of utopia (and harmony) is that there is no money. People contribute and receive in an equitable way based on what they do best, what they desire to do. Everyone receives a good standard of living (quality food and shelter and appropriate mental/physical health assistance). Also, love and intimacy is not confined to any single relationship whether it be husband/wife, parent/child, etc. No one "belongs" to another and people who love a child can nurture the child without being a relative, etc.

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Originally Posted by Alisa

But why does disinformation exist?
Why does anything exist?

Originally Posted by Alisa

Why would a hierarchical structure disseminate disinformation?
To enslave for one reason.

Originally Posted by Alisa
Do you mean by a hierarchical structure something that goes higher than a person's soul?
No, unless you are choosing to perceive the universe from a negative perspective only.

Originally Posted by Alisa
Does the existence of disinformation have something to do with duality?
Yes.

Originally Posted by Alisa
Is it the friction that provides resistance for creating muscle through seeking non-disinformation?
Yes, close enough.

Originally Posted by Alisa
And what would you call non-disinformation, because I have a feeling if I call it truth, this will not be accurate...or is it?

If we have defined disinformation as including an intent to dis-inform, then I'd say "non-disinformation" would simply be information.

An interesting response for the harmony discussion. Anything further?



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Why does disinformation or anything exist...I guess I'll answer this by saying that anything and everything exists to serve the creator. And so I agree then that the purpose for disinformation is to exist as the dual opposition of information.

By the same token, if disinformation is to enslave then information is to liberate.

As for harmony...Yes, I do have one more thing to add, and that is that each person take responsibility for themselves. I feel that if each person were to do so, there would be no messes for anyone else to clean up, no need for insurance (a very negative concept), no need to guess what someone else needs or for them to guess what you need.

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Originally Posted by Alisa


By the same token, if disinformation is to enslave then information is to liberate.


Hmm, I see this as too limited. If you'd like, consider further?


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I don't know what you want expounded upon... Do you mean that there is more to information than to liberate? I'm just unsure what you mean.

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Could we not say information may potentially liberate or provide the means to liberation, yet information itself is neutral?

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Yes, that makes sense. It's like receiving an answer to a problem, which is simply a neutral piece of info until it is applied. Something like that?

Oh, and what about harmony? You didn't comment on my last point...
Quote
As for harmony...Yes, I do have one more thing to add, and that is that each person take responsibility for themselves.


I'm anxious to hear your thoughts/critique.

Last edited by Alisa; Sun 27 Jun 2010 12:03:AM.
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Originally Posted by Alisa
Yes, that makes sense. It's like receiving an answer to a problem, which is simply a neutral piece of info until it is applied. Something like that?

Could be! smile

Originally Posted by Alisa

Oh, and what about harmony? You didn't comment on my last point...
Quote
As for harmony...Yes, I do have one more thing to add, and that is that each person take responsibility for themselves.


I'm anxious to hear your thoughts/critique.

Ok, so let's focus on this particular topic then.

Just on the self responsibility; what of the young, sick or old - do they fit in anywhere?

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Harmony:

Originally Posted by Al
Just on the self responsibility; what of the young, sick or old - do they fit in anywhere?


First scenario: Life on earth as it appears now, but how we could begin making it better...

Everyone would take full responsibility for themselves to the greatest degree possible. On top of which, everyone would have at least one other role they perform for the group/society.

Sickness would be handled by those who most want to do this work, and it would be through rebalancing the human who is only sick because they do not have balance. Sounds like Chinese Medicine.

As for the old, without sickness, the old would be well and quite capable IMO. I think most old people who require a lot of care are old people who are old and also ill/unbalanced, just as any human can be. Still, there would be those in society who enjoy caring for the elderly and would do so as their contribution and desired position.

As for children, they would be a joy to care for and guide, and there would also be society members that would enjoy this work and would be the main carers.


Second Scenario: My utopia, where harmony exists.

Here there is no sickness because there is no imbalance. I also think that there would be no ageing and no birth.
I believe this would emanation - but the return path to creator.

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Originally Posted by Alisa

First scenario:
...

Better from your perspective?
Also could you define responsibility - what it may imply in such a society, I do not need a dictionary definition.


Originally Posted by Alisa

Second Scenario:
Here there is no sickness because there is no imbalance. I also think that there would be no ageing and no birth.
I believe this would emanation - but the return path to creator.


If possible could you please elaborate on the last statement in the quote.

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I'm going to put your quotes in Blue and mine in Red (since you are water and I am fire - and since I can't seem to use more than 4 quotes for some reason! annoyed).

Better from your perspective?


Yes, from mine.

Also could you define responsibility - what it may imply in such a society, I do not need a dictionary definition.

This is in part what made me wonder if you were an academic teacher. chuckle Sounds like something a teacher would say.

Responsibility means that a person does not deny the affect their actions create. It doesn't mean they have to rectify or restitute (unless the action was intentionally to create harm, and then they must experience some form of restitution to whatever was harmed). However, if someone perceives that they have been harmed by the action of another, but the other did not intend to harm, then it is considered a natural consequence of co-existence and does not require restitution. (Besides, we draw to ourselves that which we need to experience, including hardship, and it is divine will acting through human agents or other means that brings this perceived "harm" about and therefore it is not the human agent's will, nor their responsibility to fix).

Also, responsibility means that if you want something that isn't on offer, you find a way to get it yourself. Whether this means you seek someone out who can help you and you ask them if they would be willing, or if you figure out how to do it yourself. Nothing is free and in excess. You take what you need, and give freely of your excesses.

An analogy of how I see people responsibly coexisting is like cells in a body. Each cell has its function and its boundaries. Not enough resources starve the cell, and too many drown it. Also, one cell should not impede upon another cell. It should work within its boundaries and limitation and should expect that its boundaries are also respected.

If possible could you please elaborate on the last statement in the quote.

Second Scenario:
Here there is no sickness because there is no imbalance. I also think that there would be no ageing and no birth.
I believe this would emanation - but the return path to creator.


Ugh, I didn't do a good job on this. Hmmm thinking I have received several messages that there will be no sickness in the "reformation", for lack of a better word, whatever that is and whenever it will be. I think illness is due to imbalance. I often get sick when I am having a huge spiritual challenge. I have found that it is because I am fighting the new information. The more I have learned to accept things and flow, the less I have become ill. Fighting is blocking and it stops flow. Balance requires flow (info moving in and out in a balanced ratio).

Aging and birth - I think that this is part of the density we have descended to as parts of the creator. We hit bottom at some point and are headed back up. It has been necessary for new scenarios and forgetfulness, etc. during this descent. But after a certain point of maturity is reached, it is no longer necessary. So you don't have to go through that cycle. I think this is part of the reformation.

Emanation is a word I received a few years ago and then researched. I understand it to mean that God/Creator descends (breaks down into pieces) and then ascends and reforms after hitting bottom (or the outer limits). It is a way for the creator to grow - sending out its particles to gain their own consciousness with these particles then coming back to the creator as "more" (with gifts!).

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Originally Posted by Alisa

This is in part what made me wonder if you were an academic teacher. chuckle Sounds like something a teacher would say.

Ok. It was simply to clarify - if we are to discuss anything, it helps to be on the same page so to speak. Otherwise we may be using the same words but be talking about different things.

Originally Posted by Alisa

Responsibility means that a person does not deny the affect their actions create.


What if there is a case of an individual whom consciously believes they did not do harm even if they did, or an individual whom consciously believes the one who was harmed caused them in some form to do the harm? This assumes such individuals or such a mindset may exist in the environment being described.

Originally Posted by Alisa

It doesn't mean they have to rectify or restitute (unless the action was intentionally to create harm, and then they must experience some form of restitution to whatever was harmed). However, if someone perceives that they have been harmed by the action of another, but the other did not intend to harm, then it is considered a natural consequence of co-existence and does not require restitution. (Besides, we draw to ourselves that which we need to experience, including hardship, and it is divine will acting through human agents or other means that brings this perceived "harm" about and therefore it is not the human agent's will, nor their responsibility to fix).

Ok, now how do you think an individual might determine or consider it a natural consequence?

Originally Posted by Alisa

Also, responsibility means that if you want something that isn't on offer, you find a way to get it yourself. Whether this means you seek someone out who can help you and you ask them if they would be willing, or if you figure out how to do it yourself.


Perhaps "Self sufficiency" might also be used here?

Originally Posted by Alisa

Nothing is free and in excess. You take what you need, and give freely of your excesses.


So balance is an aspect then...?


Originally Posted by Alisa

An analogy of how I see people responsibly coexisting is like cells in a body. Each cell has its function and its boundaries. Not enough resources starve the cell, and too many drown it. Also, one cell should not impede upon another cell. It should work within its boundaries and limitation and should expect that its boundaries are also respected.


What determines this "should" or how might it come about?


Originally Posted by Alisa

Ugh, I didn't do a good job on this. Hmmm thinking I have received several messages that there will be no sickness in the "reformation", for lack of a better word, whatever that is and whenever it will be. I think illness is due to imbalance. I often get sick when I am having a huge spiritual challenge. I have found that it is because I am fighting the new information. The more I have learned to accept things and flow, the less I have become ill. Fighting is blocking and it stops flow. Balance requires flow (info moving in and out in a balanced ratio).

smile , Yes there would be no sickness.

Originally Posted by Alisa

Aging and birth - I think that this is part of the density we have descended to as parts of the creator. We hit bottom at some point and are headed back up. It has been necessary for new scenarios and forgetfulness, etc. during this descent. But after a certain point of maturity is reached, it is no longer necessary. So you don't have to go through that cycle. I think this is part of the reformation.

Emanation is a word I received a few years ago and then researched. I understand it to mean that God/Creator descends (breaks down into pieces) and then ascends and reforms after hitting bottom (or the outer limits). It is a way for the creator to grow - sending out its particles to gain their own consciousness with these particles then coming back to the creator as "more" (with gifts!).

yay5
Learning.

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This is in part what made me wonder if you were an academic teacher. chuckle Sounds like something a teacher would say.

Ok. It was simply to clarify - if we are to discuss anything, it helps to be on the same page so to speak. Otherwise we may be using the same words but be talking about different things.

I hope you know I meant this endearingly, because I heartbeat teachers. And I love questions and opportunities to explain. I still have to pinch myself to make sure I'm not dreaming that you really want me to elaborate!

Quote
Responsibility means that a person does not deny the affect their actions create.

What if there is a case of an individual whom consciously believes they did not do harm even if they did, or an individual whom consciously believes the one who was harmed caused them in some form to do the harm? This assumes such individuals or such a mindset may exist in the environment being described.


Well, in the end, if perceived harm comes to someone, I believe it is because their soul has approved it in an attempt to learn. So it is never really the other person's fault because if the victim was not in need/want of the lesson/experience of harm, then it would not have received it. This is my belief.

To add to this thought, one day when I was reflecting on some reading I had just done about people who get abducted by aliens that then seemingly hurt them, I thought, Oo, I wonder if my guides would protect me if these aliens abducted me! At which point a spirit message clearly interupted my thought process saying, emphatically, You would protect yourself. All things [of this realm] are consensual.

Quote
Ok, now how do you think an individual might determine or consider it a natural consequence?


I suppose that it would be up to the violator to admit to doing it consciously, and hopefully wish to pay restitution. But if not, then it would be up to a judge/jury to decide. It would be great if there were people who could simply divine the truth. Or even better if all the citizens would be taught and accept the concept of responsibility as part of their upbringing and societal structure.

Quote
Perhaps "Self sufficiency" might also be used here?


Yes. And I think that self-sufficiency is part of responsibility. But if not, then, yes, I would add self-sufficiency separately.

So balance is an aspect then...?

Yes. So far: responsibility, self-sufficiency, and balance.

An analogy of how I see people responsibly coexisting is like cells in a body. Each cell has its function and its boundaries. Not enough resources starve the cell, and too many drown it. Also, one cell should not impede upon another cell. It should work within its boundaries and limitation and should expect that its boundaries are also respected.

What determines this "should" or how might it come about?

I meant that an ideal society behaves like physical cells behave when they are efficient and balanced. That's the analogy I was making. They stay within their own boundaries, do their intended job, and they seem to be regulated with the right amount of nutrients and a good flow, etc. dunno

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To add to this thought, one day when I was reflecting on some reading I had just done about people who get abducted by aliens that then seemingly hurt them, I thought, Oo, I wonder if my guides would protect me if these aliens abducted me! At which point a spirit message clearly interupted my thought process saying, emphatically, You would protect yourself. All things [of this realm] are consensual.

In essence all is consensual as an individual will choose based on knowledge/awareness or lack there-of.

Quote

I suppose that it would be up to the violator to admit to doing it consciously, and hopefully wish to pay restitution. But if not, then it would be up to a judge/jury to decide. It would be great if there were people who could simply divine the truth. Or even better if all the citizens would be taught and accept the concept of responsibility as part of their upbringing and societal structure.


Would you really need a judge/jury? Then what - police and jails? Teaching could be ok, but if it were a case of the way in which the people must or are expected to act, are we not back to either/or indoctrination and conformity?

Do you not recall (assuming it is true for the moment) universal balance?


Quote

An analogy of how I see people responsibly coexisting is like cells in a body. Each cell has its function and its boundaries. Not enough resources starve the cell, and too many drown it. Also, one cell should not impede upon another cell. It should work within its boundaries and limitation and should expect that its boundaries are also respected.

What determines this "should" or how might it come about?

I meant that an ideal society behaves like physical cells behave when they are efficient and balanced. That's the analogy I was making. They stay within their own boundaries, do their intended job, and they seem to be regulated with the right amount of nutrients and a good flow, etc. dunno


Yes I am merely looking at the "should" part - what might determine why or how an individual works or behaves in this manner...

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Originally Posted by Al
Would you really need a judge/jury? Then what - police and jails? Teaching could be ok, but if it were a case of the way in which the people must or are expected to act, are we not back to either/or indoctrination and conformity?

Do you not recall (assuming it is true for the moment) universal balance?


Well, if there is universal balance, then back to what I originally said:

Originally Posted by Alisa
Second Scenario: My utopia, where harmony exists.

Here there is no sickness because there is no imbalance. I also think that there would be no ageing and no birth.
I believe this would [be] emanation - but the return path to creator.


If there is harmony, then there are no problems. Anywhere I am discussing fixing things, I am thinking of discord/dualtiy (like at present) seeking harmony/unity. But otherwise, true, I do not want to promote ideas of police, jails and conformity as harmonious.

Originally Posted by Alisa

An analogy of how I see people responsibly coexisting is like cells in a body. Each cell has its function and its boundaries. Not enough resources starve the cell, and too many drown it. Also, one cell should not impede upon another cell. It should work within its boundaries and limitation and should expect that its boundaries are also respected.
Originally Posted by Al
...what might determine why or how an individual works or behaves in this manner...



This is why I keep coming back to belief/be/faith, because I don't think we can logically sort out all issues in a way that will bring about harmony. It can be fun to think about, but I don't really believe it can be done or needs to be done. When humans try to sort things, it never works. I feel harmony can only come from letting go of struggle and desire to control. It can only come from aligning with a higher guidance and organizer that already exists. The disharmony is in fighting it. Healthy cells merely "exist" in harmony with divine will. They don't think for themselves, but flow with the thoughts that are given to them. In the end, there is only one mind that does the organizing.

So in the end, in line with my original statements about ascension, I don't think we need to do anything aside from letting go of the need to control everything, and letting things "be". It would be highly uncomfortable at first because we have been (through the illusion of individuality and duality) led to believe we are separate and need to organize things, and that there isn't something there making everything right. As we overcome this illusion, we are ascending. There aren't any particulars IMO that need to be done other than to let go of fear and the need to control.

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Originally Posted by Alisa

This is why I keep coming back to belief/be/faith, because I don't think we can logically sort out all issues in a way that will bring about harmony. It can be fun to think about, but I don't really believe it can be done or needs to be done. When humans try to sort things, it never works. I feel harmony can only come from letting go of struggle and desire to control. It can only come from aligning with a higher guidance and organizer that already exists. The disharmony is in fighting it. Healthy cells merely "exist" in harmony with divine will. They don't think for themselves, but flow with the thoughts that are given to them. In the end, there is only one mind that does the organizing.

So in the end, in line with my original statements about ascension, I don't think we need to do anything aside from letting go of the need to control everything, and letting things "be". It would be highly uncomfortable at first because we have been (through the illusion of individuality and duality) led to believe we are separate and need to organize things, and that there isn't something there making everything right. As we overcome this illusion, we are ascending. There aren't any particulars IMO that need to be done other than to let go of fear and the need to control.


Generally speaking, yes I'd agree. If you recall I put forward 2 paths with regard to mindfulness. This world is built with the utilizing control. It is all around, in every facet of society. But this is how people think. It is their understanding - Order out of chaos, with order being the result of control. All of this, at the present time, if one turns on the television or walks out the front door, is blindingly obvious. But of course not all will see. A main factor in why they cannot see is... any guesses?

Control. Which brings us back to mindfulness. So in an harmonious society, there could not be any form of control for it to be harmonious. There would of course be... any guesses?

Freedom - the opposite of control. So now if you could please, I'd like your input regarding freedom and a harmonious society. Anything you might think of, such as what is, relationship or how you understand or perceive the points I have put forth.


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Originally Posted by Al
Generally speaking, yes I'd agree. If you recall I put forward 2 paths with regard to mindfulness. This world is built with the utilizing control. It is all around, in every facet of society. But this is how people think. It is their understanding - Order out of chaos, with order being the result of control. All of this, at the present time, if one turns on the television or walks out the front door, is blindingly obvious. But of course not all will see. A main factor in why they cannot see is... any guesses?

Control. Which brings us back to mindfulness. So in an harmonious society, there could not be any form of control for it to be harmonious. There would of course be... any guesses?

Freedom - the opposite of control.


Yes! I see just what you mean. I feel overwhelmed with concurrence!

Originally Posted by Al
So now if you could please, I'd like your input regarding freedom and a harmonious society. Anything you might think of, such as what is, relationship or how you understand or perceive the points I have put forth.


Freedom is flow. Natural consequences teach what actions are helpful or hurtful. It makes me think of the discussion I have had more than once with people who defend organized religion and the bible where they say that without the bible, how would people know right from wrong.

And I say, Commonsense. Compassion. Reasoning. I never needed anyone to tell me not to hurt others. One the few occasions that I did, I felt awful! I remember being angry at my sister when we were small (about 5 y.o) and scratching her with my long nails and seeing blood bead to the surface of her skin and being struck with complete horror. I still remember the reasoning in my mind at that moment, it felt so bad to see what I had done, sooo bad that I declared then and there that I would never do that again. Ever. No matter how angry I became. Nothing was worth feeling that bad.

If I had been punished on top of that (by my parents) it would have been redundant to say the least. It probably would have developed from guilt into shame. Maybe punishment promotes shame. thinking

Though not everyone may have this sort of conscience (maybe it takes lifetimes). dunno

What about pets and animals? Don't they need boundaries though? Are we only talking about freedom for humans?

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Originally Posted by Alisa

If I had been punished on top of that (by my parents) it would have been redundant to say the least. It probably would have developed from guilt into shame. Maybe punishment promotes shame. thinking

Can.

Originally Posted by Alisa

Though not everyone may have this sort of conscience (maybe it takes lifetimes). dunno

You just lifted up a considerably large rock on the beach...
Consider qualities of STS polarity in comparison to qualities of STO polarity if you will...

Originally Posted by Alisa

What about pets and animals? Don't they need boundaries though? Are we only talking about freedom for humans?

First is the concept - we have nothing to work with, nothing to discuss if we have not determined what it is. Otherwise I may use the word freedom, mean one thing and you may use the same word and mean a somewhat different thing. We use thought to build an understanding of a concept (freedom in this case) and thought to analyze the current understanding, to correct, improve, elaborate. The beginnings of objective thought you might call it.

So firstly, what is it, what does it mean, then we can test and see how it applies experientially.

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Originally Posted by Al
Originally Posted by Alisa

Though not everyone may have this sort of conscience (maybe it takes lifetimes). dunno


You just lifted up a considerably large rock on the beach...
Consider qualities of STS polarity in comparison to qualities of STO polarity if you will...


Oo, so I'm onto something! Well, I am aware that my conscience was not shared with my siblings. I have witnessed them take pleasure in other people's pain.

So serving others is not wanting to hurt others? Because I still thought of myself as STS despite knowing to respect others. After all, if I hurt others it hurts me, and I don't want to be hurt. How I always considered myself to be serving myself is that all of my motives, even when I give to others, is in the end because of how "I" feel when I give. Ultimately every move that feels right to me that I make is selfish because it is based on how it makes me feel. When I am serving others against my own will, I feel very angry.

For example, if my son's school asks me to proof read their policies for feedback, and I do this because I enjoy proofing things, then they are happy and I am happy. If they ask me to attend a bake sale or fundraiser, I don't like this, and if I went I would be miserable. Maybe they would be happy. But I can't do it for them because it does not serve my happiness.

So THAT is what I base STS on and why I say I am STS. Finally I have defined it! whew2

Originally Posted by Al

So firstly, what is it, what does it mean, then we can test and see how it applies experientially.

So to get back on topic, we are defining the positive path, which is relinquishing unwanted emotions as opposed to banishing them, correct?

In the past I have used restrictions and barriers to shape myself and my path. Now I must see a way of shaping myself without barriers. Or is "shaping myself" even what I am after at all? cutitout

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Originally Posted by Alisa


So serving others is not wanting to hurt others? Because I still thought of myself as STS despite knowing to respect others. After all, if I hurt others it hurts me, and I don't want to be hurt. How I always considered myself to be serving myself is that all of my motives, even when I give to others, is in the end because of how "I" feel when I give. Ultimately every move that feels right to me that I make is selfish because it is based on how it makes me feel. When I am serving others against my own will, I feel very angry.


One does not "want" whilst serving others. Whether the want is for the safety or health of another, in reality this is still wanting for the self. Giving to another for how it makes you feel is still self servitude. This is the disillusion of many whom give to "feel good" and believe they are "doing good".

The "mirror" reflects all. To hurt another is to hurt the self. To give - to truly give - to another is the same. The universe is in perfect balance, thus if something is truly given, then by universal law, an equal return shall be received. And this returns us to the "faith" or "belief" as we have discussed previously.

Originally Posted by Alisa

For example, if my son's school asks me to proof read their policies for feedback, and I do this because I enjoy proofing things, then they are happy and I am happy. If they ask me to attend a bake sale or fundraiser, I don't like this, and if I went I would be miserable. Maybe they would be happy. But I can't do it for them because it does not serve my happiness.


Perhaps I might point out that the STO polarity does not imply slavery by consent, or any such similar notion.
That said though, one should not expect the asking or the task at hand to be either pleasant or enjoyable. It may be, it may not. It also depends on the individual - things need not feel miserable despite the (perceived) circumstance.

Originally Posted by Alisa

So THAT is what I base STS on and why I say I am STS. Finally I have defined it! whew2


The objective is to see self as it is without the bias instead of seeing what one wants to see or is conditioned to see.
Relate this to conscious self awareness if you will.


Originally Posted by Alisa

So to get back on topic, we are defining the positive path, which is relinquishing unwanted emotions as opposed to banishing them, correct?

Yes that is correct enough with language limitations.

Originally Posted by Alisa

In the past I have used restrictions and barriers to shape myself and my path. Now I must see a way of shaping myself without barriers. Or is "shaping myself" even what I am after at all? cutitout

"Must" is a considerably limited concept. But if you "must" then you must let go of this "trying", "wanting", expecting.

Perhaps either an example situation to consider or return to the concept to understand for the next move...

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Originally Posted by Al
One does not "want" whilst serving others. Whether the want is for the safety or health of another, in reality this is still wanting for the self. Giving to another for how it makes you feel is still self servitude. This is the disillusion of many whom give to "feel good" and believe they are "doing good".


I think being alive is to want. I think want is another term for will. If you want for nothing, then you would have zero motivation. There must be want at some level.

Originally Posted by Al
The "mirror" reflects all. To hurt another is to hurt the self. To give - to truly give - to another is the same. The universe is in perfect balance, thus if something is truly given, then by universal law, an equal return shall be received. And this returns us to the "faith" or "belief" as we have discussed previously.


Serving self is ultimately serving others. It is the only way to truly serve others as I will explain. If I've had any repeated message from spirit it is that progression and ultimate fruition comes from serving self. And to me that is the path of ascension.

When you serve yourself, your wants your will is actually divine will (God's will) that is animating you, driving you. To become attuned to what that will is, and to reach forward to fulfill it, is to serve God/creator, which is in essence to serve all. Serving self is as close as one can get to serving others, in my understanding. As I raise my consciousness and progress, I lift humanity that iota and my own balance and bliss is reflected to those around me. That is what I give, my gift, the fruit from my fulfilled tree.

If one serves others in any capacity that does not align with their own personal will/want, then one is deviating from their intended purpose. They are cutting off a branch or giving unripe fruit to another, damaging self and giving out something useless, not using all of their energy to encourage their own fruit to grow and ripen. Ripe fruit falls easily from the tree and is the gift to all from your own self-fulfillment and self-fruition. It is the only truly helpful food/gift that can be given. And it can only be had by serving self through will. Not only that, but by feeding another rather than self, one is now mucking in someone else's business and path of learning.

For example, if someone falls into a pit and I climb down to help them out, now I am in the pit with them. And they now can lean on me to help them out. They don't have to think and struggle to get out. Their consciousness is not broadened by the experience. (And apparently I already know how to get out, so I am wasting my time, otherwise, I have put myself in a pit for no good reason if I can't get out). They are dirty and tired, I am dirty and tired, and they have not learned how to get out of a pit on their own. Not only that, but their complacency at receiving help is now heightened. Their consciousness is dulled because they believe they will be helped out of a pit, or at least get some company down there, should they fall into a pit in the future. I deprive them of self-sufficiency and the self-confidence it brings.

So, do I throw them a rope? Well, at least that way I don't go down in the pit with them, but still, they will not have the intensity of motivation that they would have on their own, and thus their drive to learn and expand from the situation would be cut short. I would in essence be depriving them of an opportunity to learn something. I would at least be muddying their learning. I am actually hurting them because eventually they will have to learn how to get out of the pit themselves and next time the pit may be deeper and their mental resources to draw upon smaller because I blocked their development.

Do I yell down encouragement,give them feedback and verbal support? Sure. Why not. I do want them to get out. I do care about them whoever they are as they are part of me. But I want them to reach their fruition in as balanced way as possible as set out by their higher self, not according to my will. I do not want to carry them lest they learn not to climb.

Originally Posted by Al
Perhaps I might point out that the STO polarity does not imply slavery by consent, or any such similar notion.
That said though, one should not expect the asking or the task at hand to be either pleasant or enjoyable. It may be, it may not. It also depends on the individual - things need not feel miserable despite the (perceived) circumstance.


I don't agree that the task should not be enjoyable. It should be wanted and in that there is some form of satiation if not joy. Though I do agree that perspective of the individual can make anything pleasant or unpleasant.

Originally Posted by Al
"Must" is a considerably limited concept. But if you "must" then you must let go of this "trying", "wanting", expecting.

Perhaps either an example situation to consider or return to the concept to understand for the next move...


I am still interested in the concept of relinquishing rather than banishing unwanted emotions. I think there is validity in it.

I think we still differ on the validity of "want" though. I don't think we can live without infusion of want/will. We would be nothing but jelly. We would be energy without containment. My want is to progress. Why? I believe it is the father's will, my spirit father. I received a message that true bliss is achieved when the (father's) will is separated from spirit. I think that happens at death.

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You are correct that serving the self ultimately serves others and in addition serving others ultimately serves the self. But there is a distinction.
You are free to choose or believe you will choose either path.

I wouldn't categorize want with will, though you may of course.

On the relinquishment - review if you "want/will"

Lessons continue after death.

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Originally Posted by Al
On the relinquishment - review if you "want/will"


This is what I am thinking at present...boundaries have served a necessary purpose in my life and in the whole world in my view. I can't imagine what would happen without them. It would be chaos as far as I can tell.

However, I am open to the fascinating concept that subtler refinement requires something else (perhaps a concept of relinquishment) as opposed to a boundary. Where in the end you vacillate/oscillate between left and right of an issue at a very fast speed in which you are not black (say left) or white (say right), but a grey blur. Something like that...questionmark

I'll tell you my example where I am applying this in my mind...sugar. I have one overt addiction left in my life that I am aware of (not including my whole addiction to breathing, sleeping, moving, reacting, being alive) and that is my attraction to sugar. I have tried banning it (it becomes more fierce). I have tried wild abandon with it (it becomes more fierce). In the end, I can only now conceive of living with my taste for sugar and somehow letting it coexist with me without dominance.

Coexisting fits several spirit lessons I've had. I am to embrace whatever I fear thereby integrating it into the greater mass of love that I am (and thereby enlarging the love mass even more with the emulsified fear particles). The other is to "focus 100% on positive and remove focus entirely from negative". So with the sugar attraction, I can integrate the desire into me (since it won't "go") and allow the larger part of me to outnumber it and neutralize it. And I can also remove focus from it...(oh, though that would require a boundary) and place focus elsewhere. thinking

So this could be what relinquishment is - embracing the tendency and changing focus? eyebrow

Originally Posted by Al
Lessons continue after death.

I used to think so, especially considering the books I read by Dr. Michael Newton that speak of lives between lives and the spirit classrooms, etc. I suppose at the moment I think that growth continues (perhaps infinitely), but maybe it is not in the form of lessons (not like the earth life lessons anyway).

Last edited by Alisa; Tue 06 Jul 2010 01:36:AM.
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Originally Posted by Alisa

So this could be what relinquishment is - embracing the tendency and changing focus? eyebrow

How about consideration and seeking to facilitate an understanding which then allows upon newly developed choice the ability to let go as applicable...

Originally Posted by Alisa

I used to think so, especially considering the books I read by Dr. Michael Newton that speak of lives between lives and the spirit classrooms, etc. I suppose at the moment I think that growth continues (perhaps infinitely), but maybe it is not in the form of lessons (not like the earth life lessons anyway).

Lessons are applicable to each level.

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Originally Posted by Al
How about consideration and seeking to facilitate an understanding which then allows upon newly developed choice the ability to let go as applicable...


It sounds beautiful. Maybe there is a certain level of understanding necessary that I haven't reached then with the remaining emotions and reactions I wish to relinquish. I have sought understanding and I feel that I have a certain level of understanding, but I do not now automatically have the ability to let go. Maybe it just takes time? Practice?

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And developing objective self awareness.

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Originally Posted by Al
And developing objective self awareness.

This is it. content Looking at self from outside. And reminds me of this saying "Be in the world, not of the world".


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