I've been absent from this site for quite a few days, and as I feel the tremendous need to reply to numerous posts & PM's, I can't get over this nagging need to post my thoughts on something that has been troubling me for the last few days.



I don't know if many in Australia know about our U.S. government's push for torture on terrorists, but it is now & has been for the last eight years since the Bush administration, a subject of controversy here in the U.S.



This is something I've struggled with for years, because I'm torn between my human limitations & my spirituality. My human self feels that our government should do whatever is necessary to protect our country from the acts of terrorism, & ensure that these monsters know in the future, that this(torture) is what they might face if caught by the American government. But then the soul part of me knows full well that any act of torture is wrong(but knowing what I know spiritually, this is also confusing because I really don't believe in sin, so exactly what is wrong anyway?). However, I do know that on the Other Side(heaven,or the afterlife) there is no right or wrong, we have only created this concept for our boundaries here on earth. So when it comes right down to it, the torture we inflict on others here on earth, is only punishable here on earth as well. I don't think that one who tortured another here on earth, is going to suffer for it in the afterlife unless that person wills it so, by carrying human limitations with himself into the other dimensions when he leaves this earth.



So now what do we have? We have a spiritual dilemma, & I dare not say "moral dilemma" as it is our very "morals"(read rules) that create yet more limitations on our spiritual decisions here on earth, and block the universal lessons that I believe we are supposed to learn during our soul's stay here on earth. What lesson is that? To live & let die. Is it really our jobs as human beings to inflict unspeakable acts on other human beings to get the truth out of them? Are we as individuals, or as a country so blind as to not see the redundancy in this, as per our soul's growth? Or how about choosing when another human being should die? Is that also our right as individuals, or as a country? Or the death penalty in various states? Are these really decisions that the human race should be in charge of, & appointed by who, with what right I might ask?



Don't get me wrong, I feel both sides of the coin here, I am an American, a mother, a wife, a sister, and as all of these people that I am, I want to protect the ones that I love from anything that will harm them. The human side of me does anyway, but my spiritual side keeps reminding me that protecting them from any dangers that they might face will also inhibit their human & spiritual growth. So really what does one do when they would on a human level, do anything to protect the ones they love even if it meant killing another human being? But on a spiritual level, also knowing that it is not our job to decide when another human being dies.



I've struggled w/these questions for most of my latter life, as in my youth I was a strong supporter of the death penalty. But as I've spiritually evolved, I've started to realize that it is never my right to decide when another human being's life should end. Especially when I believe in Karma. But then this also leads to more confusion, as Karma seems to be a natural "human" law of attraction, which leads me to believe that in order to have Karma in play, we would have to let such atrocities as terrorism & torture occur naturally, to let Karma do it's thing. Please don't mistake my comprehension of Karma to be as directed as only in the negative, I know that Karma also works in the attraction of positive energy as well. I am just specifically talking at the moment about the negative Karma that negative actions attract. So all in all, If we aren't punished on the other side for these actions that we deem here on earth as "wrong", then the only logical answer seems to be that the "wrong" is only punishable here on earth, & if that's the case, are we stopping Karma from serving it's purpose, by killing or torturing others that have done something wrong? Or are we in fact helping to create the Karma that comes back to bite them in the *ss, by being the catalysts for their Karma by being part of their demise?



It really is a tough question, because we inadvertently act on a human level first it seems, then after the initial human thought of "Kill anyone who threatens to hurt the ones I love!" passes, the thoughts from my soul that is of a higher consciousness say, "But is this your decision to make?" Then I remember that each soul living here on earth, has already chosen their time of death and the manner in which they will experience death. And so you have to again ask, if a soul has chosen to die through murder let's say, is the person who murders them going to suffer negative Karma for committing this negative act, or should the murderer be held in reverence for helping the murdered person reach & fulfill the death, that that particular individual chose to experience? In the human scheme of things it could be said that the murderer should be punished for this act, but in the spiritual aspect of things, these two souls actually agreed to live out this murder for each of their soul's growth, & each have contracted the roles that they will play to achieve this. So is it really punishable at all on any level when a "wrong" act against another human being is committed? Since on a soul level, we have all agreed on & actually picked the obstacles that we will overcome here on earth such as the people that will wrong us while we are here, the people we will wrong, the lessons we will learn, & the specific pains & losses that we will suffer while here? When thought about in that way, why would we punish the very souls that agreed to help teach us these lessons, I mean we are the ones who in fact recruited them in the first place, right?



Then when we do punish these individuals here on earth for their acts, are we in fact creating bad Karma for our selves? If we take it upon ourselves to punish, torture & kill others for acts that are only considered "wrong" here on earth, are we in fact pulling our own bad Karma towards us by this, or are we actually becoming their bad Karma as we take part in the horrible things that will happen to that person, that might in fact be considered their Karma? And in turn will we be punished through yet more bad Karma, or will we be revered for the contracts that we helped them fulfill on a spiritual level by being part of their life lesson & possibly their demise?



Ultimately is it right on a human level to punish, torture, & kill those who harm us & the ones we love? By punishing them, are we interrupting their own Karma, or are we helping to enforce their Karma? And last but not least, do we attract that same bad Karma back to ourselves, by promoting & being a part of someone Else's bad Karma by the acts we commit in retaliation?



Something to think about, all comments are welcome so please feel free to discuss. I don't believe that there is a right or wrong answer to this, or even one answer for that matter. So don't feel hesitant to share, as controversial as the subject is. You will not be judged here.

I smiled at the length of this post. I adore your passion! As usual, I totally understand where you are coming from and have had most of these thoughts, too.



Excellent point.

I, also have struggled with the concept of justice and self-defence and whether there is ever a time when killing is okay. The first thing I turn to is the voice I choose to believe as most true--as an outer voice, aside from my own inner voice--and that is Seth as channelled by Jane Roberts. It might be hard to simply accept the following if you are not familiar with Seth's books, but virtually every word I have read from his numerous books strikes a chord of truth in me so I give it lots of weight.





You think such wonderful thoughts, ask such good questions and think so clearly and deeply.

My based on my latest fav writings The Impersonal Life, I would say with confidence that all that occurs (murder, etc.) is God's will in order to hone our imperfectness of body. If we chose to punish criminals, that is a vital learning experience for those being punished and those doing the punishing, otherwise it would not be happening at all in our reality. It is something that has to be experienced over and over in order to realize the futility and to thus turn our desire-to-control over to God.

I now see that all the messages I received of death were pertaining to my ego/personality (which desires to control). It is the only way to become one with God (to lose that individuality - which is pretty frightening to the ego/personality)!



If we are compelled to kill or punish those that kill, etc., I do not believe it creates karma. I believe that it is God's will. How I interpret what happens is this...when you get to a point through the many life lessons and honing by God's will that you no longer feel desire to participate in such things, then you stop, because your will is now aligned with God's purpose and desire to manifest perfection through physical humanity. And that is when you begin to "ascend" for lack of a better word. In other words, you don't really have to try (It's more like you have to endure the painful process of shedding ego, facing fear, letting go). It will begin to feel distasteful participating in body-fear actions such as violence. Then you will begin to overcome reactions of fight/flight. Eventually you will radiate a calm and peace in which you will not experience the violence very frequently...or not at all (I dare say and hope).

My current thoughts.

Wow Alisa, right on point as usual!!!

I found so much truth in your response, & enjoyed the two diff opinions (Seth's & yours). I found both explainations to represent exactly how I feel about this & why I feel torn, but pulled to the ultimate feeling that it's just wrong - but not w/out being right at the exact same time. For example, I know what Seth writes to be true, I just know this at a soul level I guess, because everything he said sums up what I hear in my head. I'll use your term of "inserted thought" Alisa, like this for instance...

I wrote...


I feel that something on a spiritual level, an entity, guide, God is saying this in my head(Aaagh it's the voices again!!!).
Also it's something I have just always felt, despite my human feelings on the subject of to kill or not to kill.

Seth wrote...


And this is what I actually consider to be Karma. Alot of people mistake Karma for a type of spiritual vendetta, almost like a punishment, when in actuality it is just energy attraction, just as Seth(Jane Roberts) says, but just doesn't use the word Karma. I'm not insinuating that you think this Alisa, I just mean to say that alot of people view Karma as a negative punishment from God per say, instead of looking at it like an example of science. If you are wired to attract the same energies to yourself that you emit, then if it's negative that you are - it's negative that you get back. And the same goes for positive, these positive energies that we recieve, when we eminate pos energies from ourselves, aren't "rewards" as some would say, I believe that it's cause and effect for us, with the laws of attraction that we live by on this planet.

Mom used to say to me when I was in in JR. High & complaining about some friend, "Put out what you want back, if it's a friend that will never fail you that you want, then be that friend to all that you know. If it's a friend that is always honest that you want, than be that to all that you know, it will come back to you because that's the way we're built.", she used to say "Be all that is what you want back from the universe, and the universe will comply." And I found that you can't just be that way sometimes, you have to be that person & own it as how you treat all, not just the few select that you know & value in your life. And it has always proven to be true to me at least, because when you look at the positive & negative things that happen throughout one's life, it's easy to judge these things as punishments and rewards from God/Source. But really I don't see God as one who punishes, so that throws the neg energy right out of the punishment catagorey. Then take the positive things that happen to people for example...many believe that these are direct rewards from God/source. I also have a problem w/this just a bit, & this is why, if God doesn't punish, then why would he reward? Don't get me wrong, I do believe that God rewards us, but not on a human level so much as on a spiritual level once we return to the other side. And by rewards I don't mean what we would necessarily consider a reward w/our ego based human mind. Evolving spiritually is the most givin reward, & one that not just God, but that also WE give ourselves.

I think that God pretty much let Karma be the judge so to speak, because God doesn't judge. So what would be the best way for God to let us learn the ropes w/out having us live in fear of being judged for every little thing? Create a failsafe system where we create our own punishments & rewards w/out the fear of being judged by him.Kind of like a flat rate a cab driver might give one traveling a long distance, instead of charging you for every single mile, you get a hard price, & it doesn't change it's always that same price even if there's a detour.So instead of God having to play judge, he left if up to us to judge & tweek ourselves, simply by giving us a scale to live by & a very simple one at that..."Mirror the kind of person & experinces that you would like to attract." That is what I have always believed Karma to be - simple cause & effect of the way we & our planet were set up to coexist. And we learn our lessons by this Karma, as well as our achievements in a very nonjudgemental way because of this system.

I really think I'll look up this Jane Roberts, as I see myself possibly connecting with her channeled words on an eye to eye level. Thank you for always including the authors of the quotes you use Alisa. I have gathered so much new reading material from you!

Now onto my second point wich is this...

Alisa wrote...



Love this!!!! And couldn't agree more, it is supposed to be this way because it's mostly the negative that I believe we humans come here to let our souls experience, & if what Seth says is true(like I somehow know), then even if we kill to set laws & boundries for our own protection, it's still wrong to kill. So if that is our race's plan for punishment(to kill in some cases), as much as it suits us for the place we live(earth), we are still supposed to rise above & evolve. Rise above the hatered, the judgement, the punishing, and the NEED to punish & kill. To allow ourselves to leave it in God's hands when someone wrongs us. And how do I believe God handles it? Judgement? Nope. Wraith? Nope. Karma. YEP. Why? Because that's his flatrate way of letting us set our own boundries instead of setting them for us, then punishing us when we cross them. Kind of a "live & learn" way, VS. a "follow & obey" way of living life. Free will & the natural achievements & consequences that our decisions & energy pull towards us.

Alisa wrote...



I also know this to be true. Mom brought this 10 count CD set of this guy,(I wish I could remember his name!!!) over during her last stay with us. The man spoke of the same principals, To train your human mind to not even relate to hate in any way, thus at some ascending point, actually becoming one who doesn't care for conflict or hate on any level! And with no effort or human thought pattern first, you just simply become evolved past wanting to control the outcome of a hate or conflict related incident. Leaving it in God's hands. Ascending. Feeling no need to teach the lesson to be learned by the "to be punished" individual, because you know God's got it set up already for that individual to learn this lesson with or without you, so let it go. I believe that yes at some point we are supposed to punish & kill & torture others, because we all have invested lessons in these experiences. And from the experiences, is where we get the desire to slowly let go & let God. I don't think it would be as easy to grasp this concept, if we first didn't experience where hate and vendetta and retaliation has taken our race. I think that once we get the chance to experience these horrible things here on earth, the actual experience is what creates the need to evolve past having to even deal w/it anymore(and by this I do not mean becomming appethetic), and we start to Karmically pull in the positive, as we leave the neg for God to deal with.

Thank you Alisa for such a thought invested reply!!! I always enjoy your replies so much, especially when you help me to blend what I might think to be two seperate concepts, into one concept with two parts, each supporting the other to make the whole . Bless u.

I'm glad to hear you figured out the death thing, & I like your theory. As all things must come to an end, so must the phasad of ego since we really at a soul level, don't have one. Good for you on the self discovery (or as they say in your neck of the woods, good on ya mate)!!! And I must say, if something has to die, better the ego than you!

Thanx for the always stimulating conversation, you never fail to provide such yummy spiritual snacks!

Thanks for your further explanations, Jaime. It has helped me think more deeply. I really like your explanation of karma as setting our own boundaries. I had spiritual lessons at one point about being a shepherdess (analogy) and learning to set boundaries for the sheep to walk between. The lesson was you don't have to punish or reward the sheep if you set up clear boundaries with consequences. I find this helpful in all relationships, and particularly parenting. Still working on it, mind you.

I don't mean to be opposed to Seth's ideas on violation, I'm just not 100% knowing what to think. I understand violation and that we have to learn not to violate one another. We each must stay within our own boundaries and not step into others. I just don't know what then to do if someone steps into mine because there has to be a consequence, right? I embrace his idea of thinking aggressively of peace. And killing does seem wrong, but I'm just not sure how to think of things in light of right and wrong these days and what should be done about it by humans other than focusing aggressively on peace. I guess that's where I am at right now in my lessons. I watch docos on prisons and I see the wrongness of imprisoning people, and yet I wonder how it would go to not do it any more. There have to be consequences still...don't you think?

Lately I have been receiving the thought, It is a self-correcting universe. (I guess this is much like the shepherdess lesson). I interpret this in part to be about like attracts like. And I believe it does this to load up one side of the scale so much that the imbalance drives us to begin loading up the other side. Or another analogy is a pendulum, swinging to one side until "gravity" pulls the pendulum back and it then swings out to the other side, each time going to less extremes and coming closer and closer to balance.

With addictions for example...you feel compelled (out of like attracts like to go back and do it again and again and again until you are so sick of it, so ultimately disgusted by the imbalance, that you are motivated enough to overcome it. Therefore, I have to say that there is more going on with us than simply like attracting like otherwise things would never change. There must be an even stronger drive within us (God's will) that craves balance and so no matter how far out we go, something is always pulling us back to middle.

I think it is all a honing process of this self-correcting universe as set up by God, that we are given a flawed, unbalanced personality (a concrete suit for our spirit) so we can struggle and learn and build muscle, indulge to excess and then overcome it.

So back to the original question you posed! Should we torture or punish people? I'd say no, we shouldn't. No matter what we think it will mean or whatever kind of repercussion we fear, we have to believe in peace if we are to experience it. And as you and your mother realized and aspired to...we have to treat others as we wish to be treated and as we wish the world to be.



Ooo, very well put.



Can I steal and say "Ditto!! I needed your reply to help me think more and tie more together. I'm not done yet either, so if you have more, lay it on me baby.

So summarizing...I get that I don't step onto others boundaries, and so I won't. But I am still wondering, should there be consequences given by me if they step on mine? And if so, what and how? Or would giving consequences be stepping back on their boundaries?

Oh, how I'd love to sort this out. Chime in!